PURE BRAMSONIAN POLITICS: New Rochelle City Council Had No Problem with Gadsden Flag in 2012

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PURE BRAMSONIAN POLITICS: New Rochelle City Council Had No Problem with Gadsden Flag in 2012

April 16, 2013 - 21:20

MemorialDay2012 GadsdenFlag1

NEW ROCHELLE, NY -- If there was any doubt that Mayor Noam Bramson's decision to take down a Gadsden "Don't Tread on Me" Flag from the New Rochelle Naval Armory was driven by cynical partisan politics, namely his desire to run to the left as he seeks to obtain the Democratic nomination for Westchester County Executive, look no further than last year's Memorial Day Parade.

The annual event, organized by the United Veterans Memorial & Patriotic Association and led by UVMPA President Peter Parente, featured speeches by Mayor Noam Bramson, Congressman Eliot Engel and others. Marching in the parade was Bramson along with Council Member Barry Fertel (D-District 5), Council Member Ivar Hyden (D-District 4), and Council Member Jared Rice (D-District 3). In the park after was George Latimer (D-NY). Also on hand was Westchester County Clerk Tim Idoni (D-NY). Also, walking in the parade was City Manager Charles Strome.

None of the Democrats on City Council who claimed at the April 9, 2013 City Council meeting to have found the Gadsden Flag "offensive" when it was displayed in front of the New Rochelle Naval Armory expressed the slightest concern that the flag was prominently displayed during the 2012 Memorial Day parade and served as the centerpiece for a patriotic display on the bandshell in Hudson Park.

The bandshell was festooned with American flags including three "Stars and Stripes" flags, a POW-MIA flag, a Marine Corps flag and, in the center, surrounded by two Support our Troops/Yellow Ribbon shields, a Gadsden Flag. The entire park and parade was lined with all manner of American and service flags including variations of the "Don't Tread on Me" flag.

Participating in ceremonies at the bandshell was members, in uniform, of the New Rochelle Police Department, the New Rochelle Fire Department, various City officials and representatives from every branch of the Armed Forces, most in New York for the 2012 Fleet Week festivities. The New Rochelle Police Department color guard played a lead role in the ceremonies that day.

After the Town of Deerpark, NY raised a Gadsden Flag in defiance of the New Rochelle City Council's actions to remove the flag from a flag pole at the New Rochelle Naval Armory, Mayor Noam Bramson told the Journal News "“I think public property is best used for unifying symbols, such as the American flag or the flag of the state of New York."

The New Rochelle Memorial Day parade, a City of New Rochelle event, is one of many such events administered by the United Veterans Memorial & Patriotic Association. The bandshell at Hudson Park where the Gadsden Flag was displayed for the entire day last May is public property. Thousands of New Rochelle residents come together each year for the City's Memorial Day ceremonies and parade in support of the men and women of the United States military, past and present. The event has been, for many years, the largest and most-well attended community event in the City of New Rochelle.

There are 34 Comments

This just proves the absurdity of their accusations that the flag is a divisive symbol. If it was SO divisive why wasn't it asked to be removed from the band shell which is public property also. This was only last year while the tea party existed and was using them at rallies. it was clearly in the center of the band shell at a ceremony that the entire community gathered for yet now that very same symbol is divisive? Just furthered proves this is a personal snub in the face of the veterans as it pertains to the Armory. How are these jokers even going to show their faces at the next memorial day event next month? I know one thing I'm bringing my Gadsden flag to it!

You're welcome to bring the Gadsden Flag with you.

What you are not welcome to do, is hoist any flag on a flag pole of our government, without the permission of the government authorities in charge of that governmental flag pole.

The Courts will determine that this is not a free speech issue, but rather a property rights issue.

The Courts will determine that no one has the right to hoist the Gadsden Flag on a governmental flagpole, without the permission of the government.

This is because such a decision would also have to permits others to raise the flag(s) of their choice on the same flagpole. Perhaps someone would then raise a flag with the image of New Rochelle's very own superhero, Mighty Mouse. Perhaps some creep would raise the Confederate Flag.

The thing to remember, is that under our Constitution, Free Speech has to be message-neutral. So the Courts cannot determine a Free Speech issue, without taking into account all possible messages.

But then again, this is obviously a Property Rights issue, not a Free Speech issue.

I know you were made aware but the UVMPA-NR is chartered by New Rochelle City Council Resolution 92 to maintain all veterans Ceremonies, civic and patriotic duties that occur within the city of New Rochelle.

They have historically been given precedent to maintain various flags throughout the city including the Armory Flag pole. The Ceremony in which the Gadsden Flag was raised was an official and permitted ceremony.

As the pictures of last years memorial day prove, the UVMPA displayed the Gadsden Flag in the middle of the Band Shell, no one on the council or in the community Democrat or otherwise complained. it was impossible to miss as it was the center piece. Now they didn't ask for permission then, the Band Shell is public property. The Tea Part was well in existence.. Where were the Objections then?
Does the city council now want to micromanage everything the Vets are Chartered by law to do?

Don't you see that every day that goes by they and you look even more foolish and petty? Have you not noticed Democrats coming out and saying let the flag fly, its a flag of our nation and armed forces? Most recently Ken Jenkins and Phil Reisman?

As for your anyone can run up a flag even a confederate flag straw-man argument. no not anyone can, the UVMPA is a chartered organization that has historical precedent of maintaining that flag post, they were given permission to hold their ceremony, its not like they gathered out of no where and put up a flag and left.

Your argument is invalid because they are the only chartered group with that responsibility in the city, therefore they don't need , the council, the mayor , or your permission to hold their ceremony the way they see fit with a flag that they have precedent in using and that no one objected to as recently as a year ago. this is not the soviet republic of New Rochelle, you cannot manage every detail of people's lives, i know it drive your tolerant liberal mind crazy but sometimes you need to tolerate others too.

Evidently, the Gadsden Flag did nothing for Ken Jenkins.

And that issue will not help any other politician running for Westchester County or New Rochelle Office. Therefore I and most local Democrats are hoping that the Teabaggers put the Gadsden Albatross around Astorino's Neck throughout his campaign. Go ahead, make our day.

Really Brian? Do you have a list of these "most local democrats" ? Why, I would say that without providing a list, preferably signed by the named to prove you weren't making it up, your statement is a projection of your own imagination. Let's see, you wanted me to produce a list, insinuating without it i was wrong. Do you apply the same principles to you own brand of histrionics, or do your principles float to suit your own liking?

You specified that thousands of people signed up protesting NR removing the Gadsden Flag, implying that a list already exists.

In comparison, I referred to no signings or lists. Rather, I referred to the sentiments and beliefs of Democrats, that will manifest itself on Election Day. After Election Day, official lists of Voter Turnout and Demographics will be available to the public from the Westchester Board of Elections.

However, to clarify, when I posted "I and most local Democrats are hoping that the Teabaggers put the Gadsden Albatross around Astorino's Neck throughout his campaign", I was referring to Democratic District Leaders and Politicians. You can get lists of the Democratic District Leaders and Politicians from the Westchester Board of Elections.

But let me ask you, why would any Westchester Democratic politician or voter possibly fear the Gadsden Flag as an issue? As I consider the Gadsden Flag 'issue' in Westchester to be a Venus Flytrap ready to gobble the local Tea Party candidates, I encourage Rob Astorino, to make an issue of it, so as to assure Noam's election to County Executive.

Please do keep Rob Astorino's focus on the Gadsden Flag, and you will find out on Election Day, how meaningless that issue is to most Westchester Voters. Other issues that will sink Astorino, is the Anti-Choice movement, and the anti-gun-regulation movement. Not one of those ultra-conservative issues will gain traction in Westchester, one of the most progressive counties in the USA.

Presuming that Astorino and his followers make Gadsden a central issue, we will all find out in November, how few Democratic, Republican and Unaffiliated votes care about Gadsden.

The only thing that would fog why Astorino loses, is that the voters will punish him for violating Westchester's Housing agreement with the Federal Government, resulting in Westchester's loss of millions of dollars in Federal funding.

The voter lists will be available shortly after the November elections from the Westchester Board of Elections. One can go to the Westchester Board of Elections website, to obtain PDF's of data reflecting voter turnout, by party municipality and election districts for all elections throughout Westchester, going back many years.

The exception to that is the NR Board of Education and Library elections, in which the WBOE keeps totally uninvolved. That is, NR Board of Education and Library elections are entirely monitored and run by the NR Board of Education, with very little data available to the public. Obviously, this impunes the integrity of NRBOE elections, while making it harder for candidates to run for those offices.

"government authorities in charge of that governmental flag pole."

The same governmental flag pole that has not flow a flag for years, a flag pole that is on a property that has been neglected for years by the New Rochelle government!

"this is obviously a Property Rights issue"

The government authorities are also in charge of Armory
Bramson the puppeteer and his puppets all should go to jail for the crime of neglect of a Armory

One dollar was spent to buy it and now it's in such bad shape it will cost about a million to take it down and throw it away. The DA should take a look at the neglect and pack up the puppet show and throw them in jail.

is that you?

I support the Veterans Right to Fly the Gadsden flag!
It obvious now that Strome,Bramson and 5 Council members made a miscalculation here.
They are the ones making the political statement here, Not the Veterans.
Stop the nonsence, let it fly high with pride!
Save the taxpayers from defending a lawsuit that will be lost.
Bad Noam, Very bad Stome, And shame on the 5 Council members who voted to remove the flag

It is obvious ,after a casual perusal of the names of people who comprise the New Rochelle City Counsel , that not one of them has anymore than a half generation of involvement in the town, including the Mayor. Let them fly the flag. It's a historical flag and has meaning far and above what they 'think it means' . This flag represents , among other things, the right for people people to stand up for their rights and freedoms, something this whishy washy group of 'free loaders' know not a great deal about.. They remind me of parents give out trophies to any kids who participate in sports .Politically correct doesn't cut it now , nor did it cut it back in 1775.Imagine if these people on the City Counsel were in charge of crafting the Constitution back when . Shudder to think.

There is no group of people alive in 2013, that should be trusted with writing our Constitution.

No City Council in the USA in 2013, should be compared to our great, liberal, secular Founding Fathers (and Mothers).

The Gadsden Flag represents an anti-government political movement that began before the Declaration of Independence legitimized the American Revolution.

Once the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776, our Revolution began in earnest. After that, the Gadsden Flag became an obscure historic oddity.

The image of the Rattlesnake with the words "Don't Tread on Me", was created by Ben Franklin in 1754, to advocate colonial support of the British Crown during the French and Indian War. It originally had nothing to do with creating an American Republic, or of advocating revolution.

That same image, was adapted to various state militia revolutionary flags between 1775-76, prior to the Declaration of Independence, but never appeared on the national flag of the USA.

The official, national flag of the USA has always been some form of the Stars and Stripes, and was never anything with a Rattlesnake with the words "Don't Tread on Me", and certainly not the yellow Gadsden Flag.

It is the Stars and Stripes, that among other things, symbolize the right for people in the USA to stand up for their rights and freedoms under the US Constitution.

The Gadsden Flag represents an insurrection against the UK Monarchy and Parliament, prior to the Declaration of Independence.

Our initially-unlawful 18th century civil war only justified itself as the American Revolution, via the signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776. By that time, the always-relatively obscure Gadsden Flag ceased to be used by the few small boats that had displayed it.

As Mr Bramson continues to have his true colors exposed regarding his disdain for military and veteran voter base, will the party continue to back someone who is alienating a large block of voters? It has been well demonstrated the undercurrent of this potential candidates vehemence towards those who have defended the rights we are endowed with. The people who have selfishly served their nation's call to duty.Aligning the party with this potential candidate will,no doubt, wind up hurting any chance of victory for the County Executive seat. Thousands of voters have signed on to push back against Mr Bramson. Heed the warning.

I wonder what Lowey does when she gets pressure from the Military for hiring a speech writer who is Anti Military. There goes half of his income.
Bramson sure left himself open from his college role in Anti ROTC. Talk about Youthful indiscretions?
This kind of thing has derailed a number of people in line for Cabinet positions and nominations.
Disdain for the Military now produces a number of first results for Bramson on Google searches.
We may be watching the beginning of the end for him.

I didn't realize Noam Bramson was looking for a position on the President's Cabinet.

Which Federal Department do you think Noam is trying to become the Cabinet-level Secretary of?

The main Cabinet positions that would require military experience is Sec of Defense and Sec of State. President Obama recently appointed two Vietnam Vets with Purple Hearts to those positions, one Democrat and one Republican. Prior to that, we hadn't had a Vet in either position for many years.

We haven't had a President who was Vet, since GH Bush, and before him, Nixon.

So Military experience has tended to weigh little on Cabinet choices, for many years.

The issue of ROTC on College Campuses, is rather meaningless to voters throughout the USA, in 2013.

Issues of the military are of little importance to voters of municipal, county or state public offices in NY State. And why would it be?

nor have you ever been, or have any empathy for veterans.

You must be very, very, very close to the corruption in New Rochelle and work for Idoni II.

My father had a 90% VA Disability Pension from a landmine that blew up in his face in Germany, near Belgium, on Nov 22, 1944. I considered that a cursed day, even before JFK was assassinated on the same day 19 years later.

Although he greatly suffered throughout his life, Dad was lucky to have been injured a few weeks prior to the Battle of the Bulge, or perhaps he would have died in 1944.

Both his brothers also served in WW2, with his youngest brother Burt dying at 18, within months of his graduation from Albert Leonard HS, and within weeks of my Dad's injuries. My grandmother grieved that loss her whole life. I never met my Uncle Burt, but his name is on the plaque on NR City Hall's lawn.

I was available for the Draft, during Vietnam, but was lucky to get a good lottery number. But I've been friends with several Viet Vets, and every one of them was physically or mentally damaged by that fruitless war.

I probably have a lot more empathy for Vets than you are capable of.

I have no connection to any corruption in New Rochelle, and often complain about corruption, and poorly run government. I refuse to deal with the money side of politics, except for a small amount of money I sent to the Obama campaign and to the Democratic Congressional Caucus in 2008 and 2012.

My interests in politics is in issue advocacy and getting out the vote. I encourage all citizens to vote, as I believe in democracy.

Although I am very concerned about New Rochelle, NY State, and national issues, my main interests are in international relations, diplomacy, current events and history.

I tend to be ahead on the curve, regarding foreign policy, and believe most wars can and should be avoided.

There is nothing more empathetic to the military and Vets, than avoiding wars. Anyone advocating wars is a hypocrite if unwilling to fight in wars, which is one of the many reasons I have no respect for GW Bush and his puppetmaster, Dick Cheney.

How few of the 'Thousands of Voters' live in New Rochelle? Anyone not registered to vote in New Rochelle needs to be distinguished from voters who can vote in New Rochelle Elections.

Please publish a list of your 'Thousands of Voters', indicating which voters actually live in New Rochelle.

If you are unable to publish such a list, it would indicate that either such a list doesn't exist, or that at least, most names on the list are from outside of New Rochelle, if not from outside of NY State.

If you are unable to publish a list of the 'Thousands of Voters', it would imply your list is ficticious ala Republican Joe McCarthy.

It strengthens your argument, to publish that list. As it weakens this and any future arguments of yours, to be unable to publish the list of thousands of New Rochelle voters, it is very much in your interest and that of your movement, to publish such a list.

My gut feeling is that very few New Rochelle voters are even aware of the Gadsden Flag issue, and that very few New Rochelle voters are on your list. And so I offer you this challenge.

I would respect your movement, if it can at least publish a list of the alleged 'Thousands of Voters' living in New Rochelle, who are critical of the New Rochelle Government for removing the Gadsden Flag.

I don't know why I bother with your nonsense, but i guess I'm just that "liberal".

First of all it's a county wide race you nitwit, so more than just New Rochelle voters are counted.

Facebook, website polls add it all up and even you could figure it out, that is if you wanted truth. I don't know who will win, but i do know, with the same amount of certainty you seem to possess, this one single issue will affect the final vote.

Even Bramson supporters I have spoken to are disillusioned with the tactics used, unable to understand why this issue was chosen given all the other troubles New Rochelle has to offer.

Nobody publishes personal voting records. I never said I had "a list" . You're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

Basically nobody gives a crap about your "gut feeling" or whether or not you "respect" what others are doing. These good people are standing up for what they believe is right and couldn't be bothered by the idle ramblings of a compensatory narcissist.

Like i said, i don't know why I bother

It's obvious, that the Gadsden issue affects no more that 20 people in New Rochelle, and perhaps as many as 100 people in Westchester County.

So I don't know why you bother either, and assume that your idle ramblings are of a narcissist with little knowledge of the politics of the vast majority of New Rochelle and Westchester voters.

Nor do you understand that the Gadsden Flag is meaningless to most of Westchester's Veterans.

The more you make of this absurd Gadsden Flag issue, the better it is for the Democrats.

I guess you work for Idoni II and will benefit from him moving on up in corruption.

That figures.

I am in no way employed by Noam Bramson or by Tim Idoni, nor by any public officer, nor by the government, nor by any politician.

It makes me someone who has not defended underhanded crooks and liars.

It makes me someone who points out various misinformation and lies I read on the Internet.

It's obvious, that the Gadsden issue affects no more than 20 people in New Rochelle, and perhaps as many as 100 people in Westchester County.

So I don't know why you bother either. I assume that your idle ramblings are of a narcissist with little knowledge of the political perspectives of the vast majority of New Rochelle and Westchester voters.

Nor do you understand that the Gadsden Flag is meaningless to most of Westchester's Veterans.

The more you make of this absurd Gadsden Flag issue, the better it is for the Democrats.

You DO realize how long Idoni II has been in office?

And Idoni I before him?

Expect Idoni III to be voted in when Idoni II leaves.

Heed the warning.

You so funny.

Noam Bramson will never get out of New Rochelle because of his strong ties to a corrupt developer and to a for profit college diploma mill Monroe College. It's nice to see Nita Lowey supporting him and telling everyone of Noam's ideals and strong beliefs. I guess he believes it's ok to use taxpayer money to rip off low income and immigrant first time college attendees. Under these auspices Noam believes in private for profit education where the institution's owners profit off of the public's tax coffers and the students get less of an education than they received in their high school. GIANT SCAM all for political donations. Where else could that happen besides New Rochelle, under Idoni and Bramson's watch? People go to jail for far less in this country.

vote himself in?

Create a position of Uber Mayor aka Capo di tutti capi and vote himself in?

I'm sure if it's underhanded enough, he can do it............and the people of New Rochelle will sit by and let him.

Instead of another term as Mayor, Noam will be elected County Executive this November, resulting in his resignation as Mayor.

So do expect a new Mayor in January 2014, with a special election following in November 2014, with a regular election in 2015, for the full City Council.

Idoni I has now made sure that Idoni II will sit at his right hand, and Idoni II will make sure that the stupid citizens of New Rochelle vote in Idoni III.

So what's your point?

The shit sewer that is downtown New Rochelle will go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.........